Both managers and devs have risk with their decisions. The message in the title can easily reinforce people's insecurities and discourage them from pursuing their dreams, because they'll just get "demoted". And I think masculine traits align with that, which make them get hired a lot more. At one of the companies where I worked, we had an intentional policy of taking people from non-technical roles (such as "telephone support") and giving them opportunities to move within the company to technical roles... sometimes QA, sometimes development roles. This is valuable. alv is a role model to so many inside Amazon, because, Defines himself as a "techinical dude" in his LinkedIn profile xD. That said, to get a title promotion, I've found that you have to do more of the organizing, planning, coordinating stuff to be noticed. I think that's not the case. Both genders deserve equal treatment. Ok, let’s get down to business. It is easier and more satisfying to build something from scratch. Where'd the comment go? If no, it was not a demotion. I think any developer who feels like they have a 100% handle on all the new tech in their field... isn't paying enough attention :D feeling like there's more to learn is a way of life! She was a director (manager of managers), so going from that to an IC developer is absolutely a demotion by any definition of the word. Ask yourself that question. Huge congrats to Kristina, and I hope her engineering career brings her as much joy and fulfillment as it has brought me. If you want to learn the Drunken Monkey, you got to learn from the drunken monkey," Graves once told me.Â, Graves also studied herbal medicine and built an overflowing vegetable and herb garden in his tiny backyard in Jamaica, Queens next to the Yara Dojo Temple he built. He still talked, danced, drummed and swung head-high MMA kicks into the air as he had in that office for decades.  Â. I felt like I was stagnating. I think 'peers' is a good viewpoint. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach. Have you ever wanted to change things up at your company, but felt constrained, knowing that others would perceive you based on your previous performance in a previous role? Out of all possible advantages (let's say 1000 in total) your saying men hold 100% of all these advantages and women can't even hold one advantage? That would cause a snowball effect in large organizations, resulting in extremely high turnover for leadership positions. Please don't do this on HN again. He also helped Alyer and many other Free Jazz comrades to get signed with the label he recorded with, Impulse Records. I was in charge of Reliability for Netflix. Sure, they need to learn git, python etc. And these are VERY valuable things for a developer to know. I'm not at all sure I agree with you on this. I can't claim either is bad or wrong; people just have different itches to scratch. In short the qualifications a VP vs an IC (as you called them) are in different stratospheres. It is certainly true that these people were less productive for the first year or so than if we had hired a new graduate. Рекомендуемые системные требования Видеокарта: nVidia GeForce GTX 1060 3GB / AMD Radeon RX 580 4GB Процессор: Intel Core i5-6600K / AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Память: 16 GB RAM Жесткий диск: 30 GB available space The HN title implies that getting "demoted" wasn't the goal but a bad effect of following dreams. I know many developers who don't want to have to do all of that work simultaneously, and are extremely grateful for a manager who can take many of these tasks off their plate. (though fwiw, in my time as a past manager, I found that significant effort counted for a lot - it's cliche but folks who consistently put in extra effort and worked their butts off improved faster than those who relaxed, so they would soon exceed folks who relaxed, even if they had much less of a head start.). Anyway we're likely disagreeing in an entirely vague way. I don't think it applies here because of the informal context (casual conversation) and because the anecdote was used as evidence. You have banked knowledge and skill in X. And it's interesting here exactly because it was by choice. The work of shielding my hypothetical team from useless meetings sounds just as miserable as the useless meetings themselves. Even before I landed by current SV big tech job, I had more than made up for the initial paycut I took at a local startup. We have broken several major stories. Primary reason was wanting to get another degree, cheaply. In fact my ten-year-old daughter beat the NTY to print last Friday and she lives four hours north of NYC. I've always found it difficult to come up with OKRs (goals - insert company BS euphemism here) that were acceptable but didn't force me towards a management position. Women also have disadvantages but that is not my point. If they offer it to him, they think he would be a good fit and they're just trying to pay less. Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful meetings, that's another thing. I'm not grousing, it's just a different set of things, but I think that I would miss the "perks" of what I do now less. But alas the story had little relationship to what I expected. It felt as if there was this huge gap in knowledge that I'd never be able to fill. I'm not a researcher/etc. But more importantly, when a team had repeated technical failures, it was usually the manager who suffered the consequences. ), I feel like I am wasting my time, and it is just draining. My manager understands about 20% of the decisions I make. CEOs quit failing companies with multi-million exit bonuses. However, this is not a claim that I made as I caveated my point with the fact that what I'm saying is based off of my own anecdotal evidence. Perhaps if the title was "To follow my dreams I asked my manager for a demotion" it would be decent usage, but the current phrasing in the title is entirely misleading. One question for you: how does an engineer know what to automate? That's really all I'm saying. Presumably she was pretty clear on the short-term negative impacts of the change, and still wanted it. I think I understand your reasoning for not wanting to call human experience invalid. The skills involved in figuring out what to build are entirely separate from the skills involved in building, and you are making the classic mistake of worshiping the skill of building to the exclusion of all other skills. Chick Corea got a NYT obit two days after his passing (Milford Graves and Chick Corea started out in the same band in 1962, led by conga player Roger "Montego Joe" Sanders). I wonder how many other of us have had "non conventional" careers, stepping down from (whatever) higher paying positions in order to work as developers. A non technical manager who managers engineers doesn't add much value and instead the engineers will be mostly self organizing, as such they are mostly there to provide administrative support. As Graves predicted, she also gravitated to playing music and the drums.Â, When Graves met my daughter backstage at Vision Fest-24 in Brooklyn on June 11, 2019, Graves called my daughter "Nova" and the name has stuck ever since.Â, Graves also began to personally redesign the exterior and interior of his Jamaica, Queens home and received praise from several architecture magazines.Â. The version I heard had him going from the back of the section in a community (amateur) orchestra to playing in the Toronto Symphony to leading the viola section in the Berlin Philharmonic -- and making the same wish ("make me a better musician") each time. No, it is not a tautology. I think we are disagreeing because we're talking past one another. At my workplace those who really thrive on technical stuff can follow a path to technical glory and those who love the intricacies of managing people get to do just that. Good managers are force multipliers. That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. It isn't one of those "in six weeks I turned my side gig into a Nobel-prize winning web site and now I'm a billionaire" clickbait articles. But that's what personal anecdotes are. I have recently built my own electronics lab and am tinkering with increasingly complex designs because it is just fun. After that, he would move out and be on his own. To get VP pay as an IC (ie. The pay cut sucked. The paycut hurt at the beginning and it took a lot of self-learning, but looking back I'm very with the decision I made. E.g., the 2nd/3rd-to-last rung of a FAANG IC ladder makes much more than managers and directors at most other companies in the USA. I did. My story has some similarities to Kristina's, but I didn't I get to choose when I switched. You have to have credibility with engineers to manage them or they will not respect you. I dream about getting this kind of mentorship from a such an amazing company. My current boss is actually trying to make me 'care less'. > Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. As a manager I went home emotionally exhausted. That was a pretty major defect. Usually that will bring it to our attention, too, in which case we can take further moderation action. I really wouldn’t worry about “being viewed as a failure”. A healer of broken individuals, communities and the entire planet. I am still learning, I am still behind compared to my peers. High taxes for example, make it harder to save as much. If they do when one becomes available you should be prepared to interview for that role. Albeit admirable, like heck yeah that was a great outcome, it's not a manager decision. He asked us when our baby's due date was as well. A couple of times in my career I've stepped over into management, and regretted it each time, in large part because I can never get to the point where the manager-y stuff "counts" as work; instead it's stuff that gets in the way of doing "real" work, so the job is constant misery. It was a much higher, noble form of art then the jazz that came before it.Â, Graves looked at Free Jazz as a new blank canvas to stamp his mark on the new sound with his unique internationalist -percussive color and palate. And are therefore given the authority, responsibility, and pay-check to do so. If you switch to "Full HTML," it will probably... Black Star News has been producing stellar investigative journalism since 1997, including focusing on police brutality and other abuses targeting marginalized communities. I mean, it was nice that the people who went through this program had a strong company loyalty. She was running the Product Design team at SO, assumably managing people, and went on to work as a staff software developer. Sure I hadn't achieved anything close to being the director of design for a known tech firm; My design career was just starting to flourish when I'd made the move. But far more frequently, what you really need is someone who knows the business problem and can communicate about it clearly in the customer's own language. This happened, and it's not in my power to control what happens in the real world. You literally will not know what you are talking about, and the people you manage will see this, and that creates an unfixable problem between you and your developers. > Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. As someone who has worked at a variety of companies - this isn't true. He said that if I hated being a manager, that I would suck at it, and be constantly miserable. Great insight for a smoke jumper, not so good for valentine's day or SLA violations. How does a people manager know what to automate? Why is that? Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biases against women before we start keeping score on how men are so disenfranchised. I'm contesting the idea that managerial work is a force multiplier for individual contributors, in any sense other than in the same sense that janitorial work or admin assistant work is a force multiplier. I was a Senior Data Analyst who loved to code, and managed to transition to Junior Software Developer. As the maely unfolded around Graves- after watching his drum set spill off the stage and crash into the orchestra pit- he told me he had come to the realization that along with the all night club sets- it was time to reinvent himself.Â, Graves started taking medical and veterinary classes and told me he started wearing Orthodox Jewish overcoat and hats. Ah, so not a lateral move. Sometimes you need someone who knows the latest algorithms or tools for optimizing performance or choosing the best new language to build in. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. But this all may just be the socialist in me shining through as someone working with a team to make widgets that do their thing well. Sexism is complicated, I've known useless women at work (crippled, not enough mastery or drive) and even abusive ones (charm as a pass to delegate their work to others). Brooklyn drummer Andrew Cyrille said in 2019 that when he and Graves were young, Milford would jump off subway platforms and onto the tracks to race the subway to the next stop. Ayler's explosive overtones in the altissimo register combined with Murray's "broken" beat and eerie-howls created a new sound in the world of jazz. > When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. Legacy.com is the leading provider of online obituaries for the newspaper industry. The manager level can result in entire teams quitting, failing to support each other or an atmosphere where catching each others' mistakes is discouraged. Or it's the rewards at the end of the previous rank. It doesn't say, but I think that'd be a key part of the "frank discussions" she had with her manager. "   Instead of shaking your waspy-boomer-heads and saying gee, next time we will do better, why doesn't NYT Publisher Arthur Gregg Sulzberger get off his overpaid-white-entitled-uniformed-German-Episcopal-Congregationalist-raised-in-DC-ass and call a reporter-say I don't know, Corey Killgannon- tell him to write a full-page obituary.Â, Then "A.G." should write himself a resignation letter maybe with something like "I now realize my aloof-benighted-whiteness is literally blinding out the important news we should be covering in this city we pretend to be omnipresent in. If you're a manager at a McDonald's, and you switch to being a programmer, were you demoted then too? People are with more than their paper skill sets. That Susan is more productive if she has a tight feedback loop. 70% of my decisions have wide ranging effect, much wider than my manager's eight person team. The manager had the higher risk job because they were blamed for their team's failures. Most managers are average, their value is vague but they are controlled by managers so its an endless loop till you hit the worker layer that get things done. A subject matter expert, someone who knows the industry, designer, or whatever, can bring a lot of value to a different role. > But why does a position with greater risk necessitate greater compensation? It's not the rewards up front, it's the rewards as-you-go. There are maybe ten people in that company that are IC level making what VPs make. So she actually did have some skills, though maybe not as formal or structured as say, a tech recruiter, might want to. I'm glad that people are becoming increasingly aware of this. I responded because imo under normal circumstances nobody would be offered this kind of deal. To be a VP, you have to be a really great manager. A good manager will improve the performance of her direct reports. It's technically correct, but it sounds like it was a punishment rather than what it actually was (namely, a career choice). In the end you'd be surprised what you accomplish by simply talking to your manager early and often, having general conversations about potential aspirations and leaving the door open for them to say "How can I help?". If the job of a manager is defined as a position in which a person's decisions will have a multiplicative force... well... then of course their decisions will have a multiplicative force! Changed above now! Either that or I’m always doomed for some sort of “BUZZWORD-Ops” role. We need your advertising support to produce strong journalism, especially during periods of economic instability, so please contact vernon@blackstarnews.com for advertising rates and long term packages. It was just us. Also no one really respects you for expertise you bring from a prior career either since they don't really know how to judge your "stature" in that field. We saw. In a lateral move sometimes you get to keep your pay but almost never your rank. The album, Love Cry, became a Free Jazz classic- yet it was the only major label recording of Graves' entire career.Â, LISTEN: Albert Ayler-Milford Graves: Universal Indianshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA87T58h7kM, That same year, 1967, John Coltrane was looking to record with just himself and another drummer. Always having your pay 1yr behind your responsibilities is wrong. I just stepped down from director of development at a large banking company to be a senior engineer somewhere else, and I'm loving it. AITOO who sees a huge disconnect between the number of viable technologies, the prereqs for job openings, and the notion that there is a 'shortage of developers'? The going rate for a design director is probably a lot higher than that of an entry-level software engineer. The title undermines any message that the author. And, more importantly, what might be the massive unintended consequences of routing your org's permission structure in the same way you route its head-count? I'm glad I don't work at such a place. And the best thing my manager can do for our team is political: each team/site competes for the more interesting features to develop.. I went from being a "Flash" designer/developer, which I loved, to being unemployed and drowning in debt, to physically moving to another city, to going to a bootcamp. In fact it was Graves who gave Corea his first big break when he told band-leader-Montego Joe Sanders- that, even though Corea was Italian, to let him join the Latin-Jazz-dance-combo.Â,  https://twitter.com/burn_amb/status/1360378272341778432, 1960's Revolutionary-Free-Jazz drummer Milford Graves passed away last Friday 2/12/21 at age 79.  If his innovative and explosive-dynamic free-jazz drumming that he created himself was all Mr. Graves was known for, he would have left an indelible mark on the history of music, Jazz and drumming.Â, However Milford Graves was far more than just a jazz drummer.Â, Like Leonardo Da Vinci, Milford Graves was modern-day renaissance man way ahead of all his contemporaries in many fields of study and whose complete body of work overlaps several mediums such as herbal medicine, acupuncture, cardiology, martial-arts, education, horticulture, cooking, architecture and art.Â, Above all the titles and merits of Milford Graves- above all else- he was a healer. If they don’t understand then quit! I think it's quite a difference whether your boss already knows (or thinks) you can do the other job and still tries to not pay you the bump and you doing the extra work to get noticed. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion so fast. That's entirely invalid. One of the great things about programming is that bright, passionate, hard working people can be highly successful despite coming from non-traditional backgrounds. Importantly she acknowledges that this is not all roses and fun (which makes it a proper job). That user unfortunately resorted to some behaviors that looked like antagonizing another user at the personal level. Your manager should help you plan out a track to a management promotion. Which is great, but if I decided to change careers to building furniture, I wouldn't say I "got demoted to making furniture.". I've got enough responsibilities at home (3 teenagers) and at work that I don't feel like I need additional "children" to manage. The impact of the manager isn't the entire impact of their directs, but rather the relative difference between the impact of their directs and the impact their directs would have under a different manager. Not to mention that a lot of the times it's much harder to reverse an engineering decision vs a managerial one. Grats to her on her new opportunity! Great story! Watch movies online for free. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps she knows a LOT more about UI design than the average developer. However I can claim that a single defect caused by a developer can cost the company money and downtime, if nothing else a bad user experience. So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". >Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biases against women before we start keeping score on how men are so disenfranchised. I'd say just tough it out with the goal to F.I.R.E. If you feel "trapped", start searching for something that you love doing (and also can get paid for that) that doesn't feel trapped. I don't view ICs as below or above management, but as complementary to each other. Why is that so difficult to believe? > During these few years in which I’ve been coding in earnest on the side, I also found myself regularly discouraged and confused by the sheer number of possible things that I could learn or do. Director to junior engineer is absolutely a demotion (albeit a voluntary one), and might even come with a paycut. If you stay in denial and hang on to your old title or status, you will struggle coming to terms. Because, as a manager, you're responsible for the mistakes your people make, not them. She decided more to “retire” from being a director. No, I'm sticking up for the idea that people's anecdotal experiences are valid, within their epistemological/cognitive limits, and not simply "false". There are various methods to address risk: When you buy insurance, you're doing #3. When would they find time to code? Yeah, I didn't use the term, but I mainly meant "people management". It's great to see someone being able to dictate success on your terms and not by a career ladder imposed on by an imaginary committee. Finally note that no one really talks about 10x Managers, but people talk about 10x Developers. And that one year drag compounds because raises are %. Being a Distinguished Engineer is the highest there is for an engineer. Because as an engineer it is, of course, nearly impossible to build a truly great product if you don't understand its larger context. I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. You need both, and it's fundamentally a partnership, I wish more people realized that. I have a feeling it’s just that my resume doesn’t say I’ve already been a manager and that when I interview, I don’t lie and tell people how I’ve managed teams of direct reports. The big problems are rarely the precise code being written (it /can/ be the case when working on a specific algorithm or something) but large parts are about architecture, code review, ... and understanding the business needs aside from core technical skills. Best gay porn videos free and also stacey mature porn star. Thus, you can pay a person to do #1/#2 a fraction of the equivalent cost of #3/#4 and still come out ahead. Please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with. All his passion and insight into percussion and the rhythms inside the human body- at its center- was all about healing.Â, Just like how Mr. Da Vinci ran circles around his contemporaries that lived during his time in the 15th Century, we here in the 21st Century will take a long time to catch up with one of the great forward-leaning artists and thinkers in our lifetime. Most organizations actively try to support internal mobility (admittedly with varied success). Treat it as a whole package of which prestige and pay is only one factor. I myself am a former-engineer and current-manager, and I also remember absolutely loathing meetings as a waste of time, explaining things to people who don't really care that much about what I have to say, and plus why should I contort myself to speak "their" language and why can't they be bothered to learn to speak "my" language as an engineer? I'm much better suited to being an individual contributor. His technique also can stretch from classical to big band. I'm American on top of it. Developers can make big mistakes to bring entire companies down with them. Therefore they had to be compensated to account for that risk to their job. Edit: actually, you've done this so many times before that I've banned the account. > This is not an economic move for the company. If a senior shares their experience with 5 juniors it is (especially long-term) better spent than them hacking something alone. However, I re-read it and realized it had little to do with the relationship between risk and compensation. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting the fact that she's still developing the capabilities needed to do her new discipline. 1) His internal tech talks are fun, peculiar, and make complex concepts easy to understand. If you bring more value to the company, the company compensates you directly with a portion of that value. Women do have advantages that men don't. First of all, if you'd read the article you'll find she probably has as much experience as a lot of bootcamp grads. I do not view career changes as a promotion or demotion. If you actually want to call yourself a legitimate feminist you should spend more time listening and learning. If pay stayed the same, then something went wrong. The goal of 21st century organizations -- especially software organizations -- should be to make things scale in way that's at most sublinear with the number of people you throw at it. For example your career progression might look like: - Manager, Senior Manager, Director Bad tech companies tend to disregard this and there is a point that you can no longer get a raise unless you "move up" and become a manager. > Making a big mistake as a manager can cost the company a lot more than a big mistake as an individual Engineer, Architect or Developer, especially if you consider that the latter roles will catch many of each others' mistakes. That absolutely none exist or has ever existed? How do you not see how contradictory that statement is? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Having relatively little influence over strategic decisions is super difficult as one example. … … I took a 50% cut from a Director at an NGO to junior frontend developer (with a 8-month no earnings interval while I studied software development). Article, and could easily be less than the transcription here on,... 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